tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post1500560415865009422..comments2024-03-28T19:56:42.305-05:00Comments on Alexander Pruss's Blog: The value of punishmentAlexander R Prusshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-29016151701738973062013-08-16T09:43:41.313-05:002013-08-16T09:43:41.313-05:00Right. I bet the Hebrew here (I didn't look i...Right. I bet the Hebrew here (I didn't look it up) can also be translated "blessed".<br /><br />My feeling is that the Hebrew asher and the Greek eudaimOn are more objective than the English "happy" and less religious (at least eventually--"eudaimOn" literally means having a good daimon) than the English "blessed".Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-1241686314403695942013-08-16T06:43:23.140-05:002013-08-16T06:43:23.140-05:00I think then that in this following passage we can...I think then that in this following passage we can take "happiness" as Aristotelian eudaimonia:<br /><br />Proverbs 8:32-35:<br /><br />"So now, O children, listen to me;<br />instruction and wisdom do not reject!<br />Happy the man who obeys me,<br />and happy are those who keep my ways.<br />Happy the man watching daily at my gates,<br />waiting at my doorposts;<br />For he who finds me finds life,<br />and wins favor from the Lord;<br />But he who misses me harms himself;<br />all who hate me love death."Dagmara Lizlovshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14744785407281199347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-6317766905962671002013-08-15T20:55:03.090-05:002013-08-15T20:55:03.090-05:00While we are discussing Purgatory, has anyone ever...While we are discussing Purgatory, has anyone every had Gregorian Masses said for departed friends or family? Gregorian Masses are basically 30 consecutive Masses said for the repose of a soul in Purgatory. Here is more info:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_MassesDagmara Lizlovshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14744785407281199347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-30862502353847647912013-08-15T20:39:05.581-05:002013-08-15T20:39:05.581-05:00Alex:
I have read that at one time what was meant...Alex:<br /><br />I have read that at one time what was meant by "happiness" was a blessedness as opposed to feeling good. That within our current time we have moved away from associating happiness with blessedness and have moved it more towards and Epicurian sense of feeling pleasure or feeling good.<br /><br />"I am guessing that one of the (no doubt many) differences between hell and purgatory is that the souls in purgatory eventually come to appreciate the value of their suffering while those in hell may abstractly believe that they deserve the suffering (it seems important in punishment to ensure such an understanding) but do not appreciate it." Now this is a hard one for me to grasp. When we look at many people who land in prison, how many of them feel they deserve their punishment? How many of them blame their punishment on the "unfairness" of society, and how many of them see themselves as "good people who have been misunderstood"? How many of them believe that someone or something else is responsible for their being in prison rather than themselves and their bad choices.<br /><br />The first major difference between the good thief on the cross and the bad thief, was that the good thief first admits the justice of his punishment and then asks Jesus to remember him in his kingdom. I do not know if the good thief appreciated his own pain though.Dagmara Lizlovshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14744785407281199347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-11484982790120843432013-08-15T09:39:20.000-05:002013-08-15T09:39:20.000-05:00Dagmara:
"Happiness" here is Aristoteli...Dagmara:<br /><br />"Happiness" here is Aristotelian eudaimonia. One can be "happy" in this sense even while feeling utterly miserable.<br /><br />I am guessing that one of the (no doubt many) differences between hell and purgatory is that the souls in purgatory eventually come to appreciate the value of their suffering while those in hell may abstractly believe that they deserve the suffering (it seems important in punishment to ensure such an understanding) but do not appreciate it.Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-75508159598606300482013-08-14T20:27:28.039-05:002013-08-14T20:27:28.039-05:00"Boethius gives a striking thesis:The wicked ..."Boethius gives a striking thesis:The wicked are happier in undergoing punishment than if no penalty of justice chasten them." I have never met anyone who was happy being punished no matter how wicked they are. I think the exception would be people with masochistic tendencies. Just about everyone I know hates being punished and was definitely not happy about it. I think the exception is Purgatory and here is this excerpt from Catherine of Genoa: "I believe no happiness can be found worthy to compared with that of soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise. . . As for the will, the souls can never say these pains are pains, so contented are they with God's ordaining with which, in pure charity, their will is united."<br /><br />More from Catherine of Genoa: "Because of the souls in Purgatory are without guilt of sin, there is no hindrance between them and God except their pain. . . Clearly they see the grievousness of every least hindrance in their way. They also see that their instinct is hindered by a necessity of justice. From this understanding is born a raging fire. . ."Dagmara Lizlovshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14744785407281199347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-28165278616171692832013-08-14T08:35:22.527-05:002013-08-14T08:35:22.527-05:00Ben:
That sounds right, though there are puzzles ...Ben:<br /><br />That sounds right, though there are puzzles about what the debt is and how it is incurred and what the balance of justice is.<br /><br />Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-75370870896775166912013-08-14T00:06:43.740-05:002013-08-14T00:06:43.740-05:00Professor Pruss, I wonder if the criminal might no...Professor Pruss, I wonder if the criminal might not benefit from the punishment for a couple reasons. First, it is better to be free of one's debts by repaying them than to be indebted, and so by being punished the criminal benefits since he no longer has a debt of punishment. Second, punishment of criminals is a common good since it restores the balance of justice in a community, and as a member of this community the criminal himself benefits (but no more so than the other citizens except perhaps since he perceives the disorder more acutely).benkoonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06605290073509607998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-27425312721185187162013-08-14T00:02:43.204-05:002013-08-14T00:02:43.204-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.benkoonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06605290073509607998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-77971696198031093432013-08-13T18:51:48.027-05:002013-08-13T18:51:48.027-05:00This is what Purgatory is all about. I have been ...This is what Purgatory is all about. I have been doing more in-depth reading about Purgatory, and the revelations of Purgatory to the Saints, particularly Saint Catherine of Genoa. Plus I've been deepening my Catholic spirituality by praying Novenas for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. And I've got news for your Protestant colleagues who don't believe in Purgatory, while they may be saved, most of them will spend time languishing in Purgatory because their co-religionists don't believe in Purgatory and don't believe in praying for the Holy Souls, and wrongly believe that their saved loved ones are now all blissfully in Heaven. By the way, I do pray for Protestants who are languishing in Purgatory.Dagmara Lizlovshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14744785407281199347noreply@blogger.com