tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post436324603750094667..comments2024-03-28T19:56:42.305-05:00Comments on Alexander Pruss's Blog: Penalty and reward substitutionAlexander R Prusshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-82892948218393006062014-10-21T10:03:39.577-05:002014-10-21T10:03:39.577-05:00Fixed, thanks. Indeed, it isn't clear.Fixed, thanks. Indeed, it isn't clear.Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-20241097450929678052014-10-21T05:53:31.923-05:002014-10-21T05:53:31.923-05:00Interesting post, thanks, Alex. I think that there...Interesting post, thanks, Alex. I think that there is a typo in this sentence `And if I were given the money despite my refusal, it is clear that it would be a valid substitution.'Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12454992644552904079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-81976066565232406862010-04-26T07:34:19.980-05:002010-04-26T07:34:19.980-05:00Clearly, a mutually agreed-on substitution can sat...Clearly, a mutually agreed-on substitution can satisfy justice in cases of reward. So why can't it do so in cases of punishment as well?<br /><br />Here is one further suggestion: The reason we don't accept it in ordinary human justice is that in ordinary human justice, retribution is not the only dimension involved: there is also the moral transformation of the criminal, deterrence and the protection of society, and typically substitution wouldn't do the job for these. (In Christ's case, the other dimensions either are inapplicable or taken care of in other ways.)<br /><br />"Christs death was a sacrifice and sacrificial victims are not the subject of punishment."<br /><br />Yes. But I never said that Christ was the subject of punishment: he is not. If the good that you were going to give to X you give to Y as a substitution for X's reward, it is not a reward of Y. (It may still be a reward of X; likewise, Christ's suffering may be our punishment; Mark Murphy may discuss this option, I think, in his paper on the atonement in Faith and Philosophy.)Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-79632067651016036702010-04-25T21:04:46.149-05:002010-04-25T21:04:46.149-05:00Thus, if Sally is due harsh treatment, and Fred of...<i>Thus, if Sally is due harsh treatment, and Fred offers to suffer it for her (so, Fred's consent is built into the story), this is only a valid substitution if Sally consents to it.</i><br />Its likely that I misread you but in what way does Fred's suffering satisfy "justice". EG: When the judge is ready to sentence Sally to death for murder and Fred steps up saying, "Take me instead" in what way does this satify the judge and society?<br /><br />At Dave Armstrongs "Biblical Evidence for Catholisism" this has been discussed at length and the final answer (in my opinion) is that Christs death was a sacrifice and sacrificial victims are not the subject of punishment.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13750763393428404220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-46291714178162430402010-04-15T15:18:51.885-05:002010-04-15T15:18:51.885-05:00One can consent to the application of the substitu...One can consent to the <em>application</em> of the substitution to oneself.Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-6494123096989231722010-04-15T14:19:09.221-05:002010-04-15T14:19:09.221-05:00I agree that the consent of the substitute (and be...I agree that the consent of the substitute (and beneficiary) seems the most important factor in the general acceptability of penal substitution.<br /><br />But how does one consent to a past event? Perhaps *assent* works better?<br />Or perhaps an even stronger action is called for.GavinBrownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14920448860727985322noreply@blogger.com