tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post8824314841067218420..comments2024-03-28T19:56:42.305-05:00Comments on Alexander Pruss's Blog: Catholic dissentAlexander R Prusshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-70976035848709088902016-04-27T09:37:10.443-05:002016-04-27T09:37:10.443-05:00It's been a long time since I looked at this.....It's been a long time since I looked at this...Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-43967765825533884722016-04-26T15:46:39.328-05:002016-04-26T15:46:39.328-05:00One more question, Alexander—the regrowth of a mis...One more question, Alexander—the regrowth of a missing associated with St Pio, just getting some sense of the literature on him, was that the healing of Gemma de Giorgi described in Padre Pio: The Wonder Worker? Or is that a different case? I only ask because the one you allude to sounds quite fascinating and I would love to find as much info about that I can. If you can't recall the exact name, don't worry about it, I'll do the legwork, I just thought if you knew it offhand it might be helpful. <br /><br />But thank you again for the information here. I just discovered your blog a few days ago and find it quite interesting! Joseph Charles https://www.blogger.com/profile/02849704279926794392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-26164183650349413592016-04-26T15:06:25.934-05:002016-04-26T15:06:25.934-05:00Thank you both for this information.Thank you both for this information.Joseph Charles https://www.blogger.com/profile/02849704279926794392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-34399496113558642752016-04-26T14:07:25.103-05:002016-04-26T14:07:25.103-05:00At the shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa, people w...At the shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa, people who have experienced healings leave tokens of gratitude that are on display. For instance, if they were healed from a heart problem, they might leave a little heart medallion. One of the things I saw on display was an artificial leg. Now, what kind of a healing makes *that* be the appropriate token?! Of course, that's not very *strong* evidence without further investigation. But if one has, as I do, high priors for miracles surrounding Our Lady of Czestochowa, then even that weak evidence might be enough.<br /><br />And, while this is not quite recovery on an amputated *limb*, one of the miracles associated with St Pio was the instant regrowth of a missing eye. I remember reading that the doctor caring for the patient became a theist as a result of that one. Readers may have more data.Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-4062141467578290942016-04-26T12:33:03.411-05:002016-04-26T12:33:03.411-05:00Joseph Charles: the miracle of Calanda (https://en...Joseph Charles: the miracle of Calanda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda), where someone appears to have recovered an amputated leg, is very well documented.<br /><br />entirelyuselesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12422102436356978880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-33174973720762131162016-04-26T09:01:13.223-05:002016-04-26T09:01:13.223-05:00You mention miracles as possible evidence, specifi...You mention miracles as possible evidence, specifically the regeneration of amputated limbs, and I don't know if that particular example was meant to be humorous or not. Have there been such documented miracles of limb regeneration in the church's history? Could you point me in the right direction with the relevant names of those cases?Joseph Charles https://www.blogger.com/profile/02849704279926794392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-19985285244546526572008-09-10T08:51:00.000-05:002008-09-10T08:51:00.000-05:00That's a good point, when it's a question of actio...That's a good point, when it's a question of action. Compensationalism would let one, in a position of genuine doubt, opt for liberty more easily when the benefits of doing so were greater. However, compensationalism would not let <EM>assent</EM> to the claim that the action is objectively permissible. But the dissenter, I think, assents to the claim that actions the Church forbids are objectively permissible--she does not merely do the actions (in fact, she might not do the actions at all--thus, the dissenter may well think homosexual acts are permissible, but herself be heterosexual). <BR/><BR/>(It's also unclear that one could use any version of probabilism to justify an action contrary to the unanimous historical teaching of the Church.)Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-45061270966310336792008-09-09T18:17:00.000-05:002008-09-09T18:17:00.000-05:00ARP:3(a) is complicated by certain formulations of...ARP:<BR/><BR/>3(a) is complicated by certain formulations of the doctrine favored by some Catholic theologians known collectively as <A HREF="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12441a.htm" REL="nofollow"><I>Compensationism</I></A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-55172963585381651532008-09-02T13:31:00.000-05:002008-09-02T13:31:00.000-05:00Nacisse:That's a good question. I think the answe...Nacisse:<BR/><BR/>That's a good question. I think the answer is that this generally not going to workThe reason for that is that even if a Catholic thinks the Church is fallible, she should surely trust the Church more than any particular theologian or group of theologians. <BR/><BR/>Our main reason for trusting the Church is that she is guided by the Holy Spirit. The liberal theologian thinks this guidance allows for fallibility, but it seems hard to deny this guidance and still think that, say, Nicaea was authoritative. But what reason do we have to think that some particular group of theologians, liberal or conservative, are guided by the Holy Spirit in this way?<BR/><BR/>Well, maybe if miracles are occurring around the theologians, that might be some evidence. Maybe the liberal theologian gives a talk about how contraception is permissible, and immediately an amputee in the audience regrows an arm. That would be some evidence. (Fallible, because one would have rule out the hypothesis of demonic miracle.) But I don't think this sort of thing has been happening.<BR/><BR/>Another form of evidence would be that the liberal theologians might be shining examples of the love of God and neighbor. But just as some liberal theologians appear to be filled with the love of God and neighbor, so too do some conservative theologians. I suppose one could try to calculate the degree to which different liberal and conservative theologians are afire with love for God, and then add up the total amount of fiery love, but I think we can easily come up with half a dozen problems with this approach.<BR/><BR/>Now, maybe the ordinary Catholic might personally know a liberal theologian, admire her wisdom, and see with great clarity the theologian's love of God and neighbor. In that case, a case could be made that it is reasonable for the ordinary Catholic to accept this theologian's teachings (I think the case would still be faulty; for we know of lots of people whose lives have shone with love and who have been quite orthodox--people like Mother Teresa, John Paul II, John XXIII, Thomas Aquinas, and various living folk whom I shall not name not to give them occasions to sin through pride, etc.) <BR/><BR/>But this kind of a case is, still, rare. In fact, I hypothesize (perhaps falsely) that a lot of American Catholics would be hard pressed to name any living Catholic theologian except their pastor, bishop and pope (if the first two are indeed theologians).<BR/><BR/>I suspect that the main reason why people disagree with the Church while agreeing with the surrounding culture is not because they trust some particular theologian, but because of the surrounding culture. And this conformity with culture should worry us, whether we are on the left or on the right.<BR/><BR/><BR/>There is, though, a different route a liberal theologian might take. She might admit that the average dissenting Catholic simply follows culture. But she may think that our culture is to some extent guided by the Holy Spirit, that changes in a culture tend to be for the better. As a general progressivist view, this is surely refuted by the regimes of Stalin, Hitler and Mao. Or perhaps something like American Messianist could be involved. But American Messianism is rare (an understatement) on the political left these days (praise be to God).Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-39913817961075731812008-09-02T12:02:00.000-05:002008-09-02T12:02:00.000-05:00if i thought that some group of liberal theologian...if i thought that some group of liberal theologians had counter arguments to the church position on an issue and that those liberals were well informed couldn't i just rely on the liberal theologian without knowing the arguments first-hand?Nacissehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07188729623036653803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-88407576416364921302008-09-01T15:18:00.000-05:002008-09-01T15:18:00.000-05:00David:I fixed the typo.I think the liberal theolog...David:<BR/><BR/>I fixed the typo.<BR/><BR/>I think the liberal theologian is more likely to think that there are circumstances where not contracepting is immoral, and circumstances where preaching against contraception is wrong, but I think she is unlikely to say that the belief itself is immoral.Alexander R Prusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989277655934827117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-70302154842201836482008-09-01T14:59:00.000-05:002008-09-01T14:59:00.000-05:00In my post, "even in case doing so involves reject...In my post, "even in case doing so involves rejecting without a"<BR/><BR/>should be "even in case lacking this belief involves rejecting. . ." Sorry.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15048385218047191192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3891434218564545511.post-46098406192336237232008-09-01T14:52:00.000-05:002008-09-01T14:52:00.000-05:00If the theologian were extremely liberal, couldn't...If the theologian were extremely liberal, couldn't he hold that it's morally wrong to believe that contraception is morally wrong, and that it's better that you lack this belief than that you have it, even in case doing so involves rejecting without a good argument a teaching of the Church?<BR/><BR/>[I think there is a typo here:<BR/>"Now let us say that the liberal theologian agrees with the typical dissenting American Catholic on the concrete matter—they both think, say, that contraception is wrong." should be "is not wrong."]Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15048385218047191192noreply@blogger.com